On this episode of the InvestFourMore Podcast, I talk with Jarred Kessler, who is trying to start a company that would eliminate the need for real estate agents. As an agent myself, I’m a big proponent of using agents to make the most money when selling or buying houses. This podcast definitely had some tense moments and differing opinions! After working in the financial-services industry and believing current methods for selling and buying houses have become inefficient and outdated, Jarred started a company called Easy Knock. The idea is that buyers and sellers can use the website to complete transactions without the help of an agent. We go back and forth quite a bit while discussing the advantages of this idea and if it is really beneficial.
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How did Jarred decide to start Easy Knock?
Jarred went to Tulane University and actually started out by writing television and movie scripts. He later moved to the financial-services industry after realizing he was not making a lot of money in the script business. Jarred rose quickly in the industry, managing over 500 people at one point. Jarred saw how brokers handled large stock and bond trades in the past but were being replaced by computers and websites. He decided the same opportunity was available to replace real estate brokers and agents. Jarred started Easy Knock with a partner who has been in the real estate industry.
How does Easy Knock work?
The company is set up so that sellers can claim their house on the site and list their selling price. The house can be listed indefinitely, and there is no listing agreement or expiration date. Buyers can search the site for a house, and if they are interested, contact the owners. Owners and buyers then set up showings, hire an attorney to complete paperwork, complete inspections, and hopefully complete the transaction.
Jarred says that Easy Knock would help people find title companies, attorneys, inspectors, lenders, and the other people needed to complete the transaction, but no real estate agents can be used. Jarred assumes this idea will save people 4.5 percent of the sale price because they are not using agents. Jarred says the average real estate commission in the United States is 5.4 percent, and Easy Knock will only charge 1 percent to help buyers and sellers come together.
How do Jarred and I disagree on the idea that people save money by avoiding using an agent?
In this podcast, Jarred and I do not agree with each other very often. We keep it civil, but I think he makes some untrue assumptions. Valuing houses isn’t easy. It’s also difficult to complete the transaction, figure out the marketing, work through inspections, deal with appraisals, determine repairs, handle negotiations, and more. I encourage you to listen to the podcast to hear the entire conversation, but you will find some of the points we argue below.
Why does avoiding agents reduce the selling price?
In most cases, buyers don’t pay for agents (the seller pays for their commission). Because they are free and because buying a house is extremely difficult, most buyers will use an agent. I even wrote a very long book on the basics of buying houses! If a seller limits the buyer pool to only buyers who are not using agents, they are eliminating most of the market! The fewer buyers there are, the less your house will sell for. Jarred argues that most buyers won’t use agents if they do not have too, and buyers really are paying for agents because house prices increase to pay for the real estate agent commissions. I agree that for-sale-by-owner houses sell for much less than houses listed with an agent, but most buyers will not want to handle the buying process themselves. Jarred argues that buyers can use an attorney to write up the contract and help them with the process. However, the buyer must pay the attorney directly out of pocket and may not be getting as good of service from an attorney when agents are typically used for that service.
It is true that real estate agents push up the selling price, which is good for the seller! Why would a seller want use a website when they know they will get less money for their house, reduce the buyer pool greatly, have to handle all of the marketing themselves, unless they do it online, with different marketing systems as online advertising and PPC systems, they also need to hire an attorney to review or create documents, handle showings themselves, and price the house themselves? In the end, I think they will net less money than if they used an agent.
Why is pricing a property correctly so important?
Pricing a house is one of the most important things you can do when trying to sell it. If you price it too high, you won’t receive any offers, and the longer a house is on the market, the less it will sell for (property becomes stagnant and people wonder what is wrong with it). If you price it too low, you will sell if for less than it is worth. Some think that the price will increase when priced too low because buyers will pay more than asking price. However buyers usually base their offer on what the house is listed for, and even if they do offer more than list price, many times they pay less than if the house was priced correctly to begin with. If a seller uses a website with limited exposure to buyers, they would get even lower offers because fewer buyers know about the house. Also, do sellers know how to properly handle a highest-and-best situation?
Pricing a house incorrectly will usually cost the seller at least 5 percent of the sales price, if not much more. That means the seller doesn’t save any money by not using an agent but are still doing all the work. Jarred counters this argument with a couple points:
- The sellers will know the value of their house. Jarred thinks that because people live in their neighborhood, they will know values, and it is not a big deal. I completely disagree with this point, as it is not easy to value houses since every house is different. Everyone knows what the going price is for a stock or bond, but every house is unique and in varying condition. In my experience, sellers rarely know exactly what their house is worth, but an agent can help tremendously. A seller could hire an appraiser, but they often value houses low, and the seller then pays another $500 to $1,000 out of pocket for something most agents will do for free.
- Houses do not become stagnant on his website because they are always for sale. The premise of Easy Knock is that you will always have a price for your house on the site. Even if you are not actively selling, you would have a price you would sell for. This eliminates the idea of a house becoming stagnant because the houses are always for sale. I do not think this concept works either because that means sellers would always be getting calls and bothered buy buyers if their house was priced right. If homeowners don’t really want to sell, they need to price the house too high for the market. I think it would be really confusing determining who really wants to sell, who does not want to sell, and how motivated the seller is. Therefore, buyers would become very frustrated.
How hard is it to complete a real estate transaction?
Completing a real estate transaction is not easy, but Jarred thinks buyers and sellers will figure it out. He says that Easy Knock will help buyers find lenders, attorneys, inspectors, and title companies. Here are a few more things I think will hurt the buyer and seller when they do not use an agent:
- The buyer and seller will not know what is typically done or paid for in a transaction. Every state has different laws and guidelines for how a transaction is handled. In New York, attorneys are used to close a deal, where in most other states, title companies are used. A buyer usually hires an inspector to look over a house, but when and how that works is different in every state. The seller usually pays for title insurance, but not always. The fees for the closing company and type of title insurance are also negotiable.
- How does the buyer know what to ask for and what not to ask for after an inspection? How do they know how serious the problems are? Agents help walk a buyer through the inspection process.
- The difference in lenders can make or break a deal. A bad lender can ruin a transaction and cost the buyer and seller a lot of money. Local agents usually know who the best lenders are.
- Most buyers will need an appraisal, which can also cause problems. On one of my recent flips, the appraisal came in at $20,000 less than our contract price. That appraisal could have cost me as the seller $20,000! We were able to challenge the appraisal and get the value increased to the contract price. Will a buyer or seller know how to challenge an appraisal?
- The seller will also have to handle all of the showings and marketing. It is easier to market houses with today’s technology, but most buyers still use real estate agents to find properties for them.
In the end, I think sellers will net much less money using a site like this, and they will have more work to do. Buyers will have more costs as well (what if you need an attorney to write 10 offers for you on 10 different houses!), and they will have far fewer houses to choose from. Plus, buyers won’t really know what is for sale and what isn’t. If you are interested in checking out Easy Knock, they will be launching in New York on Labor Day. On a side note, their website now says they charge 1.5 percent for their services.
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[0:00:13.9] MF: Welcome to the Invest Four More Real Estate Podcast. My name is Mark Ferguson and I am your host. I am a house flipper. I flip 10 to 15 houses a year, I own 13 rental properties with a goal to buy 100 by 2023. I’m also a real estate agent. I’ve been licensed since ’01, I run a team of nine and we sell close to 200 houses a year.
So on this show, we like to interview house flippers, landlords and the best real estate agents in the business. So stay tuned for some great shows, if you want more information on my rentals, on the numbers, how I buy properties, check out investfourmore.com.
[0:00:58.5] MF: Hey everyone, it’s Mark Ferguson with Invest Four More. Welcome to another episode of the Invest Four More real estate podcast. I have an interesting guest on for today’s show, I’m excited to talk to him about some new things he’s coming up with, new things in the real estate industry. Jarred Kessler who is the CEO of Easy Knock which is a company that he created to help – I don’t know how to explain it right.
Kind of help people sell, buy houses a little easier without using real estate agents. I’m excited to hear about it, I warned Jarred beforehand, we may not agree on a bunch of this and so I am an agent and investor but in the industry a while but he’s fine with that so Jarred, thank you so much for being on the show, how are you today?
[0:01:36.8] JK: I’m doing great, it’s a pleasure to meet you.
[0:01:40.3] MF: Nope, thank you for being on. I always start out every show, just kind of asking guest about their background, I know you’ve been in the financial industry for 15 years, how did you first get started in that industry and can you walk us through a little bit of how your career’s progressed?
[0:01:55.4] JK: Yeah, sure, when I graduated from college, I went to Tully University in New Orleans, green waves. I was writing scripts actually in college for MTV and the guy that I was writing the scripts for invited me to come up to New York and write for him. I did it for about six months and really enjoyed exercising my creative juices.
Then had an opportunity to go to financial services where I realized after you’re 22 that you need to make some money, I was driven by the fact that financial services, there’s a lot of problem solving involved in that. I was tasked with creating businesses within a larger organization, worked at some banks, some broker dealers and my last job was you know, I ran a global business with the –
You know, I think there was around 500 people within the business and what was really interesting about that, what led me sort of to Easy Knock was you know, I saw this unique perspective of people being in the middle of trades, whether it’s in the bond industry, where the equity aspect of it and the intermediaries or the middle man and they kind of have sort of the same mindset as I’ve seen and the residential real estate that large transactions are going to require a human being.
This is the way we’ve always sort of done business and other people have tried their disintermediate and never going to happen, people have been trying forever. I kind of that perspective from that world and that’s kind of what led me to start again to get that Easy Knock and that’s where my experience has helped me to get where I was today and sort of my journey.
[0:03:31.2] MF: Okay, did you have real estate experience or do anything with real estate in those companies before you started Easy Knock?
[0:03:37.3] JK: No, actually, I view that as more of a positive than a negative just for the fact that when you live in a world, you start to think about it the way business should be done and when you come from the outside, you get to start with a blank slate and really construct it the way that you think it should be.
I prefer not to – I’m happy I don’t have that experience, I’ve obviously bought and sold homes and my cofounder, he’s got a lot of real estate experience so he brings up product experience to the table. I was never a real estate broker but I’ve been around real estate, invested in state.
[0:04:14.8] MF: That makes sense, actually, when we hire people on our team, actually prefer they don’t have experience either because we can kind of mold them exactly how they want, they don’t have any preconceived notions or kind of skewed from the industry already so it makes sense.
[0:04:28.2] JK: Yeah, better said than I did. Yeah, correct.
[0:04:33.1] MF: You started Easy Knock, kind of give us an overview of what the idea is, has it started yet or is it still kind of in the planning stages?
[0:04:41.3] JK: We’re close testing right now so we’re in the alpha stage, beginning labor day, we’re releasing the product in Nassau and county in long island, about 846,000 homes. That’s when the product begins, I’m sorry Mark but your question was, did you want an overview of what Easy Knock is or I’m sorry.
[0:04:59.9] MF: I asked you two questions so no worries yet. What it is but then asking if it started but yeah, give us an overview too of how it works.
[0:05:08.7] JK: Yeah, sure. You know, the current process right now I would say in the world you’re in Mark, is being a real estate broker is you have 93% of the transactions happening with a real estate agent, national average is about 5.4% commission rate and you know, there’s sort of a lot of pain points associated when you’re buying and selling a home in the traditional process and what I mean by that is –
The second you put your house on the market, you’re on the clock because you have the dynamic of days on the market which obviously we can use longer you’re on there. Second is once you’re committed, you have to deal with public scrutiny, your wife asking questions, your nosy neighbors, why you thinking about moving which creates hesitation from a lot of would be sellers.
The third and the biggest one, you’re not in control, it’s not accessible directly to buyers and sellers when you hire a real estate agent and obviously, we don’t really lead with this but you know, the price is another sort of pain point.
The idea behind easy knock is not just eliminating those pain points, we’re eliminating all those pain points plus a lot of other ones because we believe that you know, this is a major misconception in the market place. 56% of first time home buyers are millennials, they’re 42% of the market and 76% of them prefer not to talk to a human being in a transaction.
If you look at every other vertical and every other industry, there’s some degree of them being uberized and they would rather deal with it online, 95% to be exact. We believe that the way that the process should work is for sale by owner’s broken because you get bombarded by brokers asking to be their broker, the statistic is 95% of the people that call you are brokers.
Brokers avoid you because they don’t believe you’re going to pay their commissions. The traditional aspect we talked about the pain points. What Easy Knock does is it empowers owners and buyers to connect directly in an online marketplace and the way it works is, an owner would go to their profile which we get all the public information on and they clean their home.
They could decide if they want to take pictures and we ask them two questions. What price would compel you to move and how motivated are you? You don’t necessarily need to be active in that 2% of the active market, of the 110 million homes in the United States, the other 98% of where you’re just curious. By putting the price of where you would sell it and you could be testing the waters where you could be motivated which is active, you then say to the market place.
Maybe I’m not a seller, maybe I’m a seller, this is where I am. You’re always in the marketplace so what that does is it eliminates public scrutiny because you’re always in the market place and eliminates days of the market because you’re always in the marketplace.
What happens is buyers then can come and they can say, this is where I’m interested. This is the price range I’m in, I would like to come see your house, I’m interested. We vet those buyers through various different ways, the one that’s necessary is we ask for ID verification but the more things you choose to get identified through, whether it’s Facebook or LinkedIn.
The more information an owner’s going to know about you and feel comfortable to engage with you. Once the owner engages, they invite you to come see the home and from that process on, they would make a match, hire a lawyer and close the process. You do not charge as 1% and we allow people to be in control, be directly accessible to buyers and owners and we eliminate the days on the market, the public scrutiny, the five and a half percent and that commitment to a broker.
If people want all the level of service with a broker, we’re not the right platform for them but we do believe there are some percentage of the market that are do it yourselfers. We do believe that the macro trend from people 36 and under is this is the process they want and we believe that owners are going to cater to the way buyers transact, not the other way around.
There’s many different characteristics of why we believe that this is the future, whether you know, if you’re a second home bureau, why not always have a price that you’re willing to sell. If someone wants to engage with you, that’s great. If you’re in a high demand, low supply zip code, a place where the house sells within four or five days and I’m exaggerating a little bit, the value of a broker becomes less because really, what you’re doing is you’re pricing your home and someone comes in and you’ll have to make sure you have the right resources to transact.
If you’re in a town, where there’s hundreds of houses that have been on the market for more than a hundred days, you don’t want to compete with that, you’re better off using Easy Knock.
Those are some of the aspects of what makes Easy Knock more valuable, we’re really creating a new tier that’s different than a traditional process.
[0:09:48.5] MF: Are you guys planning to go nationwide or just in the New York area?
[0:09:52.2] JK: We believe our success is pretty binary, it’s either going to work or it’s not going to work. If it works, we have aspirations of going global.
[0:09:59.7] MF: Okay. Because that’s one thing too, I know New York, they use attorneys to close deals along with brokers, it’s a very confusing system but most states don’t use attorneys to close, they’ll use title companies with agents and there’s a lot of different aspects that go into it.
Do you guys help the sellers choose an attorney or find a title company? How would that work?
[0:10:22.6] JK: Yeah, from the point of matching, when someone come see the house and they decide that they have a meeting of the mind, we will cater to the local markets of the way they do their transaction and put them in touch with the right people and the beauty of our platform versus the traditional process.
This is maybe something that people listening on the call may disagree with but I do think there’s a lot of competing agendas, a lot of brokers, I think they recommend people that they know so if the lawyer screws up the process, it may compromise them getting a future referral. On our process, it’s pretty – it’s nonbiased, it’s for people that are reviewed and our customers continue to review those people so it polices itself so it’s pretty objective and there’s on bias involved in it.
To answer your question, whether it’s a title company, a lawyer, a mortgage platform, we’re going to create recommendations of people that we necessarily don’t benefit off of but what our customers rate it and reviewed.
We have partnerships with all those different companies and we recommend those people on to the platform and we will cater to the local market of what their process is like and we’ll respect that. Except for you know, a real estate broker, a platform’s broker free.
[0:11:40.4] MF: Okay. I know one thing with brokers, we’re not allowed to take any kickbacks, any type of fees from title companies, lenders, inspectors because of that, we’re not allowed to be bias. In my experience, it’s always been the broker’s motivated to use the people who are the best and do the best job because it will get the deal closed as opposed to somebody who they may have a bias towards but I mean, I can see that difference there.
Now, one thing I see, I mean, there’s however many titles there are in the entire country, let alone the world, how are you going to go through and find like individual title companies in each town or is it going to be more of a relationship with just a national company that works in almost every area.
[0:12:24.2] JK: I would say that we’re going to evaluate every process, we’re focused on New York right now but Ben and I are problem solvers, we’ll figure out what’s going to be the most scalable way, that’s for our clients, at the end of the day, we’re empowering the homeowners, not the brokers right?
Our client is the homeowner. We’re going to find the best process that is best for them.
[0:12:46.5] MF: One other question I had. I don’t know for sure on this. I know in your company description, it says you connect owners and buyers, what about needing a real estate license? Have you looked into that and is that needed for what you’re doing?
[0:13:00.3] JK: We’re empowering owners and buyers to connect directly, we’re not acting as a broker in a traditional sense where there’s not so in bringing those two sides together. That being said, in order to dot our I’s and cross our T’s, we have a brokerage license on the back end so that way we respect the rules of the law in the New York state and a couple of other states. We have a broker’s license even though we’re not acting as a broker in the traditional sense.
[0:13:30.4] MF: Okay, yeah, I would say that most dates, even though like you said, it’s not traditional broker, they might consider that connecting buyers and sellers, it seems to be what they term you know, needing a real estate license for so that makes sense.
One thing that I know is tricky with the real estate industry as supposed to maybe like travel agents, or you know, all of the other things that have changed so quickly is the model right now is buyer’s pretty much can use a real estate agent for free.
They get paid by the seller, there’s really no reason why a buyer should not use a real estate agent because they don’t pay them and they help to the whole process.
[0:14:08.4] JK: Yup.
[0:14:10.0] MF: How have you guys addressed that issue if someone has an agent, I mean, they’ve signed a buyer agreement and they have to use an agent for the transaction.
[0:14:18.0] JK: You know, I think Mark, you know this, I wrote a book, it’s called Death of a Real Estate Salesman, how technology is changing the game of real estate and empowering home owners. One of the things we talk about in the book is your point about buyers don’t pay for a real estate agent right? That was your point?
[0:14:34.8] MF: Yeah.
[0:14:35.8] JK: I think that’s one of the biggest misconceptions and I would say, lies and I’m not saying that you’re lying, I’m just saying it’s a lie, it’s not true. Because if you have a house that’s worth $100 and the owner only has to pay their broker and not the other side, they can lower the price of their house.
It comes out of the buyer’s pocket, just not directly. It’s a complete misconception that they’re not paying for it because if you can go to a buyer and say, we’re doing a deal and you’re not dealing with a broker so you know, your house is you’re saving – you have to pay the buyer’s broker $5,000.
I lower my price by $2,500 since you’re not paying a buyer’s broker. That ultimately benefits the buyers and when you use as a broker, an owner looks at it, what they’re netting and the more he doesn’t have to pay out, the better it is for the consumer.
[0:15:31.0] MF: True. However, I think one thing about this process too is, what about valuing properties? Because that’s one thing I think broker’s biggest help with selling a property is he’s figuring out the value because every single piece of real estate is unique and different.
Say your house is worth $100,000 yeah, I don’t have to pay a broker’s, I can lower it you know? $3,000 or whatever it is but how does the seller know what the actual value is?
[0:15:57.8] JK: How does the seller know what the value of their property is?
[0:16:00.2] MF: Yeah.
[0:16:00.8] JK: I think that the brokerage industry doesn’t give enough credit to the people that live in that community. I think the people that live in the community know what’s going on their committee better than anyone.
Basically, Ben and I, we’ve spoken to a lot of consumers and when we visit these people in the towns and because we’re going to Long Island, they know what every house is sold in their community, they know what the person across the street sell for, they know what the comps are in the community.
I don’t believe that’s messaging from the brokerage community that they are telling people that they’re not going to know what the values are. Secondly, we’re in a world of more law where things are happening exponentially. Companies like House Canary where Quantarium or Core Logic.
They’re coming out with tools that give you every comp in the area, I understand your point about houses being bespoke, but that’s up for the opinion of a broker just as much as the person in the neighborhood. My money would be on the people in the neighborhood, knowing what those houses are worth.
What you’re going to see is estimates and evaluations that become more accurate in a very exponential manner. That wall of a broker when it was more opaque I think was more valuable. I think in 2017, people could do their homework and I actually do believe there’s a lot of value to a broker in that aspect but it depends on what you’re spending right?
If you’re spending – if you can save yourself four and a half percent by actually doing your homework yourself, whether it’s getting an – you know, you get it appraised where you look up comps, where you figure it out yourself, I think they can get there.
[0:17:39.3] MF: I would say, I would disagree with you on that one, I’ll give you an example of what just happened on a house. I fix and flip houses too. I had a flip that I bought, had it under contract, we listed it for $220,000 we actually had six offers on it, ended up selling for 250, it was crazy.
But, the appraiser came through and valued it at 230. Obviously there’s a huge disconnect between what the appraiser thinks it’s worth, the homeowner, what they think it’s worth, even you know, some other agents and everything what they thought it was worth, we came back, helped the appraiser, worked with him, he actually raised the value back up to 250 after we sent him comps, showed him how to support that value but I mean, that’s $20,000, that’s what? 9% of the sales price right there of a difference in value between what the appraiser thinks, what the home owner thinks.
[0:18:30.4] JK: Yeah, I actually agree with you on that example but my point is, I had a similar example with my home. I think a lot of times, appraisals are way off from market value because they just have different goals in mind.
But there’s no reason that the consumer is not going to go back to the appraiser either. My point is they’re smart enough to figure that out too. If your house is really worth eight, $900,000 and the appraiser comes at $600,000, they’re going to speak as well but the most important thing about Easy Knock is when you put a price of where you’re willing to sell it, you’re allowing the consumer to engage in price discovery. If the price is too high, no one’s going to come in and bid for the home, if the price is too low, hundreds of people are going to come in.
It really allows you to test the market in a real manner and the only way you really know what your house is worth, you can have agents tell you, you know, I think it’s worth this and worth that is when you put it in the market, that’s how you find out, we’re allowing consumers to have an avenue to get into the marketplace without being fully committed but allow price discovery.
I can’t sit here and say that there is not a value to what you’re saying the broker does, what that’s existing in that but I think that there’s plenty of people that are intelligent enough that can find that path as well too.
We’re just giving them the tools, more tools to do that. Your example is very well noted and I respect that and I agree with that.
[0:19:55.5] MF: Right, another point I want to make too was when I buy properties, you know, I buy properties in a number of different avenues, some of them from the MLS, Craigslist even, we’ve bought houses, people who have it for sale by owner, some of the best deals we get are houses that aren’t on the MLS where people aren’t valuing them right and they’re not marketed to as many people and we can get in there and buy them because it’s not priced right.
I’ve even had agents who price homes too low because maybe their new or for whatever reason on the MLS, where we will buy properties well below market value because they’re not priced right and I think it’s a misconception that just because you know, if you price a property low, you’re going to get a bunch of offers and people are going to ultimately come up to market value. I think there’s a huge misconception there because those low prices won’t attract investors like me who want a really good deal.
Two, a lot of people for whatever reason they have this mindset that if other people are bidding on a home, I don’t want to get in a bidding war, I’m not even going to make an offer which is completely ridiculous, I think it’s the worst thing in the world to have a mindset like that but it happens all the time where you actually eliminate buyers by pricing too low and then, there’s just the fact that when you see a really low price like say a house is worth 150 and it’s priced at 120.
The mindset is, okay, well the price is 120 and you automatically think the value must be lower than you first thought because the price is lower. I think when you price a home too low, it sells for five to 10% less than what the true value is in my opinion.
[0:21:25.0] JK: Yeah, but we’re not pricing the homes too low. We’re just saying an aspirational price. It’s a different sort of psychology than your experiences that you’re talking about. There’s not a bidding war because you don’t know what the other person’s bidding.
You’re incentivized to put your best foot forward because the way our process works is the owners engages with the buyer and there’s no transparency of what the other buyers are doing. You know, I agree with everything you said, it’s apples and oranges but there’s going to be hypotheticals of look, you bought houses, if you weren’t a real estate agent, you would know what you were doing because you’ve done it a bunch of times.
[Text Wrapping Break]Easy Knock would actually be a great platform for you because you’d want to connect directly with people.
[0:22:06.7] MF: I personally would – even if I wasn’t an agent or even as an agent, if I had to pay another agent to sell houses, I would still do it personally. Just because of the exposure of MLS, because most people work with buyer’s agents right now and I feel like I would get more money in the end marketing it that way than I would without agents. That’s my personal opinion.
[0:22:30.3] JK: Let me ask you a question. If there was a better path where you can actually connect with people, every person in the entire marketplace, you would still hire an agent versus trying to do it yourself?
[0:22:39.6] MF: Yes, because well, for one thing, I believe that the system has been around so long, it’s going to be really hard to get rid of the mindset that buyers don’t need to use agents because it’s free. Even though you said, I know your point, the prices could be lower, it’s going to be really tough to get around that mindset.
Most people who are buying a house, it’s the biggest purchase they’ll ever make in their entire life. I think a lot of people want help, they want someone to help them walk through title companies, inspections, appraisals, financing, how all that works. I mean, it’s a pretty complicated process.
[0:23:13.2] JK: It’s not that complicated, I don’t’ think. I respectfully disagree, I think that is actually not that complicated. You hire a lawyer, you get a title company and you close, it’s not that complicated and frankly, the transaction management’s not supposed to be done by a broker, it’s supposed to be done by a lawyer, they’re not supposed to really be involved in that. Secondly, it might not be the right process for you but there’s a do it yourselfer’s and this whole messaging around buyers wanting to use an agent.
It’s a macro trend and it’s a fact that millennials, people under the age of 36, they don’t want to deal with the middle man. You’re not changing their behavior because they’ve never bought a home before so it’s not something they want, it’s something they’re going to expect.
[Text Wrapping Break]The last thing I’ll say to you is that comment about, this is the biggest transaction that people are going to do? I started the conversation when I introduced myself to you, because that’s exactly this mentality I heard in financial services when people were doing 500 to 215-million-dollar trades.
They said, this is a major transaction, I would never do this without a human being and those rooms that were full of those people are now full of servers.
[0:24:21.7] MF: Right, I’d say there’s a big difference between, I’m going to tell you about stocks and bonds, what are you talking about as far as those trades?
[0:24:28.3] JK: Yeah, there is a difference.
[0:24:30.0] MF: I mean, that’s what I was asking, were those stock and bond deals? What kind of deals were those?
[0:24:34.4] JK: No, they’re both capacities. I thought – my apologies, there’s a difference between that and buying real estate.
[0:24:43.1] MF: I was clarifying that and yeah, the difference I would say between that and real estate is, with stocks and bonds, I think if you’re in that industry, you can figure out the value pretty easily whereas with real estate, it’s much more difficult because of all the different uniqueness of each property.
Land value, location, bedrooms, bathrooms, condition, motivation of the seller, all of that plays a factor into what a property’s worth.
[0:25:06.6] JK: There’s a lot of psychology involved and they’re both preachers of supply and demand and there’s both factors that go into it. The point I was making is when people say that this is the biggest transaction of your life, you’re going to need someone to hold your hand, that is very much the messaging of the real estate community.
The brokerage community. I think that there’s people that need that. My point to you is I think that’s going to start to age out and that 93% of the market, it’s going to go down, either it’s 85 or 88. If someone sits here and says that there’s not going to be some degree of the market that wants to do it themselves, I respect that, I just disagree with that.
[0:25:46.0] MF: Okay, that makes sense.
[0:25:48.2] JK: You can make the argument that people want to hold their hand but to make the argument that they’re not people that are going to want to do it without a middle man, that would just be counter to every trend in every other industry.
You may be right and I understand you’re an advocate because you’re a real estate broker and you’re working on behalf of the brokerage industry and I do believe that the brokerage industry serves a great purpose but I do believe there should be an alternative.
[0:26:13.3] MF: One thing I’m going to talk about. You talk about having to pay a lawyer in New York, most states don’t use lawyers, they use title companies to close it. If you’re in another state using the system, are you still advocating someone to pay a lawyer to help them with the paperwork, the contracts, all that?
[0:26:31.1] JK: I think that another misconception is, if you hire a lawyer, what’s the most you’ve ever spent with a lawyer and a transaction Mark?
[0:26:39.5] MF: I’ve had some pretty crazy transactions so I spent 20 grand before on lawyers.
[0:26:43.7] JK: Okay, let’s say the most extreme transaction you paid 20 grand right? If you look at what brokers are getting paid versus what lawyers are getting paid, there’s a massive difference usually in the favor of the broker.
I’ll feel much more comfortable having a transaction with a lawyer doing more of the work than the broker.
[0:27:00.8] MF: I don’t know, I think I would disagree with you on that because I mean, there aren’t really lawyers, there’s lawyers that specialize in real estate here of course but it’s on maybe special contracts, like their state of proof contracts that every real estate agent can use.
They actually have a limited ability to practice law because they are using state of proof contracts. It’s like, the lawyer would just be there to do the contract, the paperwork, whereas if you’re using an agent, you also have someone that’s helping you find houses, helping you value the property, helping you market it.
I mean, I think there’s a lot of value ad that the agent brings above and beyond what a lawyer would bring.
[0:27:39.4] JK: I understand that, I would hope so because of you know, the fact that they’re getting paid five and a half percent of the transaction. But I think that there’s plenty of avenues that you don’t’ need a broker for and I think there’s many people that could do it themselves, that’s all I’m saying.
[0:27:54.1] MF: Okay.
[0:27:54.4] JK: I could speak from New York state because that’s where we’re going, a lawyer could definitely do a lot of the work that a broker can do at a much less of a price. In the other states whether it’s the title company, I do believe that we’re in a do it yourself culture where a lot of people are going to be willing to do the work and learn a little bit more and those that aren’t, it’s not the right spot for them and I totally respect that and I hope that the brokerage community continues to thrive with those people.
[0:28:21.9] MF: And one thing too, I have a couple of coaching students in New York and they have told me, one of them is actually a lawyer and every lawyer in New York automatically can practice real estate in New York. He said the commission rate he sees around 4% in New York because the lawyers are involved and people know they have to pay them as well, have you seen that as well or do you see something different?
[0:28:43.2] JK: The commission rates in New York are closer to 6% than 4%. They are actually higher than the national average.
[0:28:49.3] MF: Okay, I’m not an expert. I don’t know any of that but that’s what he’s told me. Alright.
[0:28:53.8] JK: Yeah, that’s actually untrue.
[0:28:56.2] MF: Okay, so what about we mentioned it briefly but home inspections, appraisals, finding a lender, are those just all things that the buyers and sellers are going to figure out themselves or are you going to have guidance for them. How are you going to do all of that?
[0:29:13.7] JK: We’re going to have strategic partnerships with companies that let people – the companies that are catering to the consumers that are funding companies or title companies or lawyers. We’re going to bring all those people, we’re going to bring those service providers right to them and they could decide the best people in those aspects and that’s what they have to do anyway. The brokerage is really not supposed to be doing that. Remember, they’re supposed to be unbiased in that process so yes, the people are going to be doing it themselves.
[0:29:52.4] MF: Okay and yes the brokers aren’t supposed to have a preferred lender or anything like that but we do offer suggestions for inspectors, lenders. I think one of the biggest problems we see in real estate transactions across the country are people choosing the wrong lender. I mean they can mess up a deal so fast either with not qualifying people right, not turning in paperwork right, delays and there is a huge difference in the quality of lenders.
Not just from companies from say like Chase Bank to Wells Fargo to Quicken but from the individual mortgage lender who works for each of those companies, they can really mess up a deal.
[0:30:30.1] JK: Yeah, I completely agree with you. That’s why transparency is so great and that’s what the beauty of the internet because you are able to police the people that are the most legitimate and the best for the consumer in all aspects as oppose to I think that a broker can be very helpful in recommending an inspector but to sit here and say if an inspector blows up the deal, that broker is probably not going to recommend that inspector again.
And the inspector always knows that in the back of their mind. So I think there is a little bit of a dynamic there that creates competing agendas and I think that you are better off having someone that’s not biased in the process that’s where you buy the consumers. That’s the best person for the consumer. It’s not necessarily the person that is helping them get more leads in the broker side or giving them more mandates as an inspector. We are creating a platform that is transparent and what’s best for the consumer.
[0:31:28.1] MF: Okay and I know there’s some people out there that there’s going to be bad eggs in every single industry but I really don’t see that for most agents as a seller especially. I might have a lot of property I’m selling and I see agents use inspectors that will hammer all of my properties as a negotiating tool to try and get more things for their buyers, reduce the price. I really very rarely if ever see halfway done inspections to try and get a deal.
I think most inspections I see are extremely thorough and are on the side of being over thorough than under thorough with as far as codes, grandfathering and all kinds of different things but I could see obviously in some cases where maybe some inspectors do that but I think they have some liability to themselves if they’re not – if they are hiding something or they’re trying to be easy on the house.
[0:32:17.9] JK: I’m just suggesting that you take that dynamic out of the equation when it’s not being recommended by a broker.
[0:32:28.1] MF: Okay. So what do you think the total cost to somebody would be then if they use your platform? Once you factor in your paying an attorney, paying your fee.
[0:32:39.2] JK: I think everything else is equal to be honest with you. Everything else is equal it’s just 4.5% less.
[0:32:45.0] MF: Well the thing is if they have to use an attorney in another state which they don’t typically use, well that’s going to be obviously an added cost.
[0:32:52.9] JK: I don’t think they have to use an attorney in every other state. I am saying that if they want to that is something that’s going to be far less – if someone wants their hand held by a professional that can go through the contracts and hold their hand, do all the transaction management. I personally call a lawyer if it’s not real estate transactions. It’s when I want a legal perspective on something on a big purchase.
Whether it’s a private equity investment or an investment, I’m going to rely on a lawyer and he’s going to give me advice but a person that’s buying a home to your point because it’s a big transaction, you may want to spend $500,000 on a lawyer if you’re saving the money by not paying a broker 5.5%.
[0:33:34.8] MF: Let me see, you know if a home owner comes on the platform and they find a buyer, how are they going to write that contract? You know that’s my questions as I think most people are not going to be typing up contracts themselves.
[0:33:46.2] JK: You’re going to hire a lawyer.
[0:33:47.2] MF: Okay so then you’re going to have that cost.
[0:33:49.3] JK: Yes.
[0:33:49.8] MF: Okay.
[0:33:51.6] JK: So let’s say you’re seeing 4.5% but you’re paying a lawyer and every state will be different. It’s never going to be more than a thousand dollars in my opinion.
[0:34:01.4] MF: Okay and then so –
[0:34:03.8] JK: But the broker will be.
[0:34:05.4] MF: What about, I guess my biggest question as a seller if I was to use that platform as I think I am missing out on 90% of people who have a buyer’s agent, who’s helping them buy a house. So can people still – I mean you said its broker free. What if a buyer comes along and they sign an agreement with a broker they have to use them, what happens then?
[0:34:25.6] JK: We’re not the right platform for them then and we believe that the fact is that 80% of people and this number is rising start their search online before they even engage with a broker. So what I believe is going to happen overtime is people are going to just – they’re going to want to be – especially because the macro term we describe, they’re going to want to start the process themselves and right now there is not an online –
We did a survey of 2,000, would you prefer an online platform or using a real estate agent and 73% of the people said they’d prefer an online platform. An online platform doesn’t exist. So if you have a platform that allows buyers and owners to get engaged directly, they’re going to actually prefer to not have to deal with the middle man just because it lacks control and accessibility. Some people want that and other people want their hand held.
They want their hand held then they belong with a real estate agent. If they want to do it themselves, they are going to use Easy Knock and in Easy Knock if they want to pay a broker, I guess the buyer can pay the broker but our platform is not going to allow, is not going to make an owner pay the platform because that’s the understanding that is never going to be more than 1%. So yeah, they may be missing out but we believe overtime we’ll scale it.
Where there will be an inflection point because we are a closed ecosystem where more and more people are going to go at it without a buyer’s broker. So that’s the path and we believe that there is a major part of the population that does the research themselves and will surround themselves and before they engage with a buyer’s broker they’re going to search and if they see a platform that has 49 times more inventory than any other platform but they are not allowed to use a buyer’s broker, they may use us and that’s our hope and that’s what we want.
[0:36:17.3] MF: Okay. No that makes sense and I think I mean from my perspective, seeing it as an opportunity if that was available in my state I don’t think I’d ever use it as a seller because like I said I think it eliminates too many people in the market place and the less people, this bigger market you eliminate who are using the agents obviously the lower the price is going to be that you are going to sell it for and then I feel like I would be holding the hand of the buyer because they are not going to be using an agent.
So you’ve got to help them with the contract process, the inspections even though you have recommendations there’s still a lot that goes on but I see it as an opportunity for myself to get good deals because people –
[0:36:57.2] JK: Mark do you own your home?
[0:36:59.7] MF: Yes.
[0:37:01.0] JK: Are you curious to see what people are willing to pay for your home?
[0:37:04.8] MF: I’m pretty sure I know values very well so I know what it would sell for. I know I would sell for a lot less if it wasn’t on the MLS and if it was –
[0:37:13.5] JK: No but my question to you is would you be curious to see if you had a platform where buyers can come in and bid for a home would you be curious?
[0:37:19.6] MF: Yeah but I don’t know if people would bid, I guess that’s a question I have. So let’s say I have my house for sale for $800,000 or a suggested price of $800,000 and someone comes along and bids $800,000 on it. Am I obligated to take that or is it just like oh?
[0:37:36.6] JK: It’s up to the owner to engage with the buyer. If you invite someone to your house and they see your house and you guys then have a medium in mind and make a match, at that point you get downgraded on the platform in your rating if you walk away from that. When you put an indication of interest you are not obligated. So it allows you to create a price discovery at that point. If you put $800,000 you should not be willing to start $800,000 until you invite that person into your house.
You shouldn’t invite that person to your house if you are not at that point, you’re going to communicate with that person and you’re going to say, “I am not at $800. I’m at $900,000” and the guy is not going to probably visit or is just going to say, “Yeah, you know what? I do want to pay $900,000” the point is, now you guys are engaged and for you to say you’re not going to be curious I respect that but most people are going to be curious because like you said it’s their biggest asset.
So by allowing a platform that allows you to price your home and then see if buyers are going to come in, most people are going to want to at least do that price discovery. You don’t want to hold the hand of the buyer. That’s their job to do. If they want the deal to get done, they’ll figure out how to do it because it’s their biggest asset and the owner is going to figure out a way to do it and again, it’s not for everyone but we believe there’s a big enough part of the population and we’ve surveyed it that want this.
[0:38:56.7] MF: So if I put my house on there and say, I’ve read what you called the interested in selling but not really listed but you know –
[0:39:03.9] JK: Well everything is what would compel me to move right? So it could be above the AVM, the average value. So if the house is valued at let’s say you as a broker valued it at a million and you’re at one too, that could be because you just move there and your kids are going to school. There are many emotional reasons why you might not want to be there but there’s scenarios where people use. If somebody might price your move but you’re engaged.
[0:39:31.4] MF: But then you mentioned engaging the buyer. So before someone’s serious about making an offer on the house they need to see it, they need to go through it. So are you showing houses to buyers all the time that come through and want to see your house?
[0:39:43.1] JK: No you’re engaging with the buyer and we vet the buyers and we believe that someone is going to come to your house if they’re interested and those two people are going to have a conversation first to vet out if they are serious or not and you decide if you want to invite them or not. If you think it’s a serious person because you got it in their profile and you know that they’re financially able to buy the house and they’re a real person, you’re going to invite them to come to the house.
Now if you want someone to show your house for you because you’re too busy working, we work with a service provider that just shows homes. You could pay a minimal amount of money to have someone show your houses for you.
[0:40:21.7] MF: Okay, how much money would that be? Do you know?
[0:40:24.4] JK: To show your house? Yeah it would probably be around $150, for five showings about $350 for five showings and I think for 600 bucks it’s unlimited and you also get 24 hour customer support if you have questions about your process that you are unsure of to hold your hand.
[0:40:47.1] MF: Okay, that’s good to know. So I think that’s one thing too that a lot of sellers don’t want to deal with meeting people at their house, talking about their house, spending and hour with them for each person that wants to see it especially in crazy markets where there’s very few homes for sale. You might have 20 or 30 people who want to see a house.
[0:41:05.8] JK: Yeah but listen, I completely agree with that and I believe that if you are on a high demand and low on supply its good. Some people are willing to do that because they are proud of their house and they want to talk about it and also people are willing to do it because they understand that the house is going to sell itself and the value of a broker goes down.
[0:41:23.1] MF: Right but then there’s a value of your time as well of spending 30 hours showing it to 30 different people and negotiating with them and on your platform what happens if you have five different people who want the same house? Is that just up to the buyer and seller to figure out who they want to work with and how that works?
[0:41:38.6] JK: Five different selling your house, there is a one person selling the house?
[0:41:42.4] MF: No five people want to buy the house.
[0:41:44.2] JK: The owner is going to decide who they think or what’s going to have the best outcome for them.
[0:41:50.7] MF: Okay, I understand. I think just for me in general, you mentioned saving 5.5% I think –
[0:41:57.1] JK: Four and a half.
[0:41:57.7] MF: Well 4.5 right? I think realistically because so many people use agents that you are really only saving two and a half percent, three percent when you of course all commissions are negotiable, there is no set commission but because you have to – even for sale by owners, even people put their house on Zillow their selves or put on Craigslist, the majority of them end up selling it to people who have agents and are paying half a commission. So there really –
[0:42:22.1] JK: Well first of all we’re broker-free but for us, I am happy to talk about the pricing but part of the pricing, I want to make it very clear to your audience and to the brokerage community, it’s not about the money. The money is secondary. If people feel like they’re netting and they are paying 6% they may be happy with that. What we’re really creating is there’s people that don’t like the process. They want control, they want to deal directly.
I supposed you’d say if people don’t want to show their house themselves, there’s people that do like to show their houses themselves. There’s people that they don’t want to go to a broker and hear back from the broker that goes to the owner. They want to deal directly, they want everything in real time. So what we’re doing is our value is we’re creating a process that gives people control and accessibility and empowers them. If we lead with price, we’re never going to win on Easy Knock.
We believe that pricing is just gravy. For us it’s about the process is not what a good majority of the people want and when I say good majority, if 5% of the community does not want this that’s great for us. We’re happy with that but I could tell you the for sale by owner process doesn’t work and people want a better way based on our survey and market research. They want a process where they can connect directly with the owner and the buyer.
And the real estate agent community, whether they believe it or not, it’s a reality and I think there’s enough room for everyone to be successful but when someone says I would hire like Mark you said “I would hire an agent if I was buying a house” I don’t believe that. I’m sorry I find that hard to believe. You’re smart enough that you can do it yourself and I believe that there’s people out there that can do it themselves and I know this is your audience so you have to say that but I respectfully don’t believe.
That if you are going through this process yourself you would hire another agent to turn around and pay them five and a half percent.
[0:44:16.8] MF: Well I can give you an example of when I would do that because I have a number of rental properties here, a number of flips in Colorado but I have been researching buying other properties in other states where I am not licensed so I would not be an agent there. So say I was looking at rentals in Florida if I were to buy a house in Florida even if there was this opportunity to buy properties without an agent.
Or let’s say I was going to buy a property at the foreclosure sale where I don’t have to use as agent, I can pay cash I would still be willing to pay an agent two or three percent down there to represent me to make sure I know the local customs, how title companies work, what to watch out for. I figured out there’s termites down there, there’s no termites in Colorado. I had no idea so agents help me figure that out and agents help me find a lender down there.
Where I need a special type of lender because I have so many properties and most banks don’t lend to me. I would happily, myself, pay an agent down there to represent me as a buyer even if it was my cost. If I was going to sell a house down there, I would pay an agent to sell it for me because I think in the end I would make more money because they’d value it right, they’d save me time taking calls and try to set up showings, they’d be able to handle the inspections, the appraisals, all of that and to do the contracts.
Where to me, maybe I am not the average person, but it would be worth it for the time savings, for the hassle and because I don’t know the local customs and how things work down there and I think that’s how a lot of buyers are or sellers when they’re not agents in any market personally.
[0:45:48.2] JK: I totally respect that. I just think that if there’s another platform where it was a path where you can actually directly talk to someone you could probably get a lot of that information. It’s just not available right now. So it’s hard to determine because there’s not a process right now and I respect the fact that sort of coordination makes your life easier but when you say 2.5% of a price of a house to help you figure out termites, I think there’s got to be a better way.
There’s no place in the world where I would pay someone $2,000 to help me sort out termites and the lending aspect of it, all that information is readily available. So I understand you personally, I apologize if it came across that I was challenging you. I am just throwing it out more for the general public when I’m saying it with you Mark I mean the general public but that’s great if you value that, we respect that and also at Easy Knock the misconception is that we don’t think there’s no value to a broker.
We just believe that there’s a better process for a certain group of people and it’s not going to be for everyone and it sounds like it’s not for you and that’s fine.
[0:46:54.9] MF: Right and I just think that there are so many things that go on in real estate like a termite problem could cost you ten grand. It can cost you way more than 2.5% if it’s not –
[0:47:02.7] JK: But those are all hypotheticals right?
[0:47:05.2] MF: And that is just one example.
[0:47:07.1] JK: And then what’s really the value of an inspector right? We could talk about this all day and go back and forth and this is part of what – the messaging of the real estate community, yes but you know what I could say about the situations where termites costs a $100,000 but that’s really the job of an inspector and if you have the right inspectors that’s where that problems gets solved. It’s not the broker.
[0:47:28.9] MF: In a sense but the broker helps courier all of that because for example in New York the person I know up there, they have a completely different process for selling a house than in Colorado where they’ll actually do the inspection before they sign the contract and get everything inked whereas in Colorado –
[0:47:44.6] JK: Who’s doing the inspection, the inspector right?
[0:47:47.6] MF: The buyer is but they are doing it before the contract is signed. They’ve got to get that all done before hand where in Colorado you’ll sign the contract first, put in dates for how long you have to inspect the home with a contingency date. It’s just a completely different process in every single state how it’s done.
[0:48:01.7] JK: Yeah and we’re going to respect the process of every state and we’re going to have a resource center to educate our clients and we are going to make sure that any of those processes, people are protected whether they need to be perhaps the resources were a lawyer but I mean what you’re describing is you’re describing coordination management and people paying 2.5% of a home for that price and I just think that there’s people that are going to value that but I think there’s a lot of people that think that’s way too much money for what you are describing.
[0:48:31.6] MF: Okay, I mean like I said, I think we have to disagree on this. I think that in the end –
[0:48:34.3] JK: Totally I respect that though.
[0:48:36.6] MF: I think agents save you more money than the commission they charge because they value houses right, they negotiate better, they know the local customs about inspections, they can help save you money by challenging appraisals, by giving comps to the appraiser, by talking to the appraisers beforehand. I’ve had five appraisals come in this year alone already and three of those we got them to raise the price and by being proactive and giving them comps and talking to them first, we got them to come in and hire I’m guessing on a couple of other ones as well.
Where just one of those, the value of the appraisal, the inspection, the negotiation can save you more than 4% on a deal so for me it makes sense to use an agent because of that but I can see where some people might want the change of process and do it differently. I know there are a lot of people who contact me all the time telling me how annoyed they are with agents and how much they hate agents and we have to disagree with the value of them.
But yeah, I think there are definitely people who don’t want to use agents but I think for me and for a lot of people it makes sense to use them.
[0:49:38.7] JK: Yeah and listen this is your show and I respect your audience and you so you get the last word and I respect that and I will say that I think there is a major value in the brokerage community and the real estate community and we are not trying to knock that. We’re just popping up our value proposition to a group of people that want something different.
[0:50:01.8] MF: I will give you the last word actually. So tell us, I know it’s not live yet but if people want to check out your site can they go there now? Can they register or sign up for when it does go live?
[0:50:11.3] JK: Yes, so we have thousands of people who have already given us their address because when it goes live they want to be able to set aside their curiosity and start exploring. Just go to www.easyknock.com and they could sign up. There’s a how it works video, we have a YouTube channel that has a certain amount of videos too. There’s a funny commercial that Mark I’m sure you’ll enjoy on it and if you want to read about the emerging technologies you can go to Amazon.
And the name of the book is Death of a Real Estate Salesman: How Technology is Changing the Game of Real Estate and Empowering Home Owners and that talks a lot about the emerging trends and some of them are derivatives of the brokerage industry and some of them aren’t. We talk a lot of stuff about Easy Knock for the first part. It talks about some of the discussions we had about misconceptions of brokers and what’s changing in the industry and why we believe that we’re in the right path.
So I do think that brokers are here, real estate agents are here to stay. I think it’s going to evolve like any other industry.
[0:51:18.1] MF: I agree too. It’s definitely changing and you definitely cannot do things the old way where pocket listings and the MLS books and all of that but yeah, it is definitely changing. I know technology is going to make things different and who knows in the future what it’s going to look like and what’s going to happen because things change so fast it’s hard to keep up sometimes.
[0:51:37.3] JK: I don’t know your local market right so I just want to make something very clear and this is the last thing I want to say is what happens in your neck of the woods and what happens in New York, they’re almost like different planets. So I’m giving you an opinion. I am not an expert in your market. I could give you my opinion as an expert in the Long Island markets because we know that really well but as we get to know those markets, we’re going to learn more.
We are hopefully going to solve those problems and work with the brokerage community and the consumers there to make it a better process because at the end of the day our goal is to put more money in the consumer’s pocket and if you’re saying or making the argument that you are saving the money or saying it saves you money, it’s good for everyone.
[0:52:14.0] MF: Nope, that makes sense. Alright well awesome. Jarred thank you so much for being on the show. I know we didn’t agree on everything but that’s okay, that’s part of business and different viewpoints and yeah, we’ll have show notes where everybody can check out Easy Knock, the website. Yeah anything else you want to add before we head out of here?
[0:52:33.2] JK: I just want to thank you for giving us the opportunity to talk about it and like you said, that’s what makes markets right, different opinions. So we respect that and we believe there’s not a monopoly on information and probably some of the things we said are not correct and we always welcome feedback and we have a lot to learn from you Mark and your audience. So we appreciate that.
[0:52:57.1] MF: Well thank you very much Jarred. I appreciate it and good luck with everything and yeah, hopefully we can keep in touch.
[0:53:03.0] JK: Thank you.